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Post by The Evil DM on Jan 9, 2008 18:30:07 GMT -5
thoughts turn to settings like Warlord and Tarzan. but we'll need firearm rules. has anyone put any thought into this?
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Post by markkrawec on Jan 9, 2008 19:57:26 GMT -5
Firearms could work basically like other missile weapons, but with a higher damage bonus & much longer ranges. Rate of fire could be tricky. Even a pistol should be able to shoot at least twice. We could say that you can put a couple of bullets into one target with one "attack", but if you aim at two or more targets that counts as taking multiple actions.
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Post by thegreyelf on Feb 15, 2008 13:33:33 GMT -5
Actually, I wouldn't give them a higher damage bonus. It's a fallacy that guns do more damage. Compare shooting someone with a .40 handgun, to smashing them in the collar bone with an overhanded swing from a short sword. I think the short sword does considerably more damage. At very least it's comparable.
The discrepancy gets worse as you get into bigger weapons. Compare a .30-.06 to a 2-handed swing from a broadsword, for example.
I do agree that modern firearms are more accurate with higher ranges, but that's not even true of pre-rifling black powder weapons, which at best would have slightly increased range and the ability to ignore plate armor.
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Post by markkrawec on Feb 18, 2008 14:20:14 GMT -5
Ignore plate, or mail? I had in mind that only plate would offer any protection, and that because the bullet might glance off the angles of the surface. Plate would offer its normal protection -1 point, and all other armor would be ineffectual against guns.
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Post by thegreyelf on Mar 3, 2008 11:39:59 GMT -5
Truthfully, tightly-woven chain would provide better protection against bullets than plate would. Bullets, like ballistics from crossbows, damage by punching through surfaces. It's crossbows and bullets that made plate armor completely obsolete.
Chain, on the other hand, distributes puncture force instead of providing a barrier against it. Thus, chain would likely provide normal protection -1, while plate would be nearly ineffectual.
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Post by sambudak on May 24, 2008 8:28:01 GMT -5
Firearms could work basically like other missile weapons, but with a higher damage bonus & much longer ranges. Rate of fire could be tricky. Even a pistol should be able to shoot at least twice. We could say that you can put a couple of bullets into one target with one "attack", but if you aim at two or more targets that counts as taking multiple actions. Then there's recoil and whatnot. And ROF for SMGs or other high ROF weapons. And how do you handle ammo usage? Simpler the better would seem to be the best fit for ZeFRS. The number of targets attacked and multi-action rule is good for me, and maybe with the addendum that the number of targets is limited to three+ one for every level of skill over five with the weapon/talent. I dunno. The thing is to put the firearms in but not take the simple out. Oh-- and hello all. I'm making my first post here.
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Post by markkrawec on May 24, 2008 19:24:38 GMT -5
Hi sambudak You mean recoil building up with each shot fired? I guess there could be a spray rule with a reduced chance to hit in exchange for extra damage. I have to admit the idea of SMGs never occurred to me. I was thinking of at most an Edwardian level of firearms development - Maxim guns, maybe, but nothing more complicated. There are some firearms rules in the Companion, which I realized after the fact don't include an ammo column in the gun table. But maybe that should be left as a possibility for a dramatic complication - say, first time you roll a failure when shooting, roll again & if you fail again you're empty. Welcome to the boards. Nice first post.
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Post by sambudak on May 24, 2008 23:31:10 GMT -5
Hi sambudak You mean recoil building up with each shot fired? I guess there could be a spray rule with a reduced chance to hit in exchange for extra damage. I have to admit the idea of SMGs never occurred to me. I was thinking of at most an Edwardian level of firearms development - Maxim guns, maybe, but nothing more complicated. There are some firearms rules in the Companion, which I realized after the fact don't include an ammo column in the gun table. But maybe that should be left as a possibility for a dramatic complication - say, first time you roll a failure when shooting, roll again & if you fail again you're empty. Welcome to the boards. Nice first post. Thanks! Recoil will effect every firearm-- and even single-action revolvers can be rapid-fired( slip-hammering or fanning-the-hammer). Even with muzzle-loaders you can significantly increase the ROF if you have several loaded pistols handy, or someone loading for you etc. My idea of using level of skill as the determinant was from years of Traveller and Megatraveller... each weapon capable of auto fire had a stat called "auto-fire targets". The more of them you used the higher your ammo usage was( e.g. two auto-fire targets engaged is a four round burst from a SMG or emptying a 9mm auto pistol on rapid fire). The thing is the abstract of using level could cover things like shooting dry and reloading and opening up again( five second turns are a long time), hosing down an area with auto-fire, or whatever you like to explain how our Hero can shoot down four guys in five seconds.
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Post by sambudak on May 30, 2008 8:59:37 GMT -5
Alrighty then. I've been mulling over the firearms rules, and a few things struck me right off. Most of the guns and crap in my GURPS 3e High Tech book or GURPS3e WW2 books or GURPS whatever will port over fairly well. So I have something to go off when I begin dismantling and rebuilding.
Basically the combat round for GURPS is 1sec, and the 5sec of ZeFRS allows enough wiggle-room to abstract some things that GURPS simulates( recoil, ROF issues-- reloading times and burst fire, explosives, and whatever). I'll just start posting my thoughts and see what you fellas think.
Firstly the multiple targets rules as written in the Companion are okay, but I think the multiple targets rule as multiple actions is too restrictive. I am thinking a straight-up -2 per additional target is fine. Semi-auto guns shoot fast, five seconds is a long time in a firefight, even non-Heroes can shoot, and it'll model the higher ROF for things like SMGs well enough for how I want to do those.
The higher ROF weapons( like SMGs, MGs, assault rifles etc.) will have just that-- like say 10, with variation on light12/medium10/heavy8 or special circmstances by weapon( the Russian PPSH or burp gun/Stalins banjo or whatever had a ridiculous cyclic rate). The change in the multi-target rule would model things like area/suppressive fire( spray&pray) or a skilled operator walking his bursts into targets etc. Highly skilled shooters will be better at hitting, but even Joe Average has a good chance of mowing down the charging horde of mole-men.
Firearm damage as written is a little off for me. I don't understand the extra brawling damage rule-- the modifier should just be upped or something, but the extra rolling is unwarranted and sorta clunky IMHO. Gunshot wounds are bad and all-- but in the context of ZeFRS abstract maybe not all that different from any high damage wound. The primary difference to me being the relative surety of a bullet doing major damage and armor penetration.
I'll get to ammo later...
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Post by sambudak on May 30, 2008 10:00:42 GMT -5
Ammo tracking is a pain-- and Marks idea of making the thing a part of dramatic results from an arsed roll is fine for me. There's no horrible failure result on the chart though-- so how to model it? The double failure suggested works well enough, and perhaps with the caveat that any double failure will get that-- higher ROF weapons running dry or jamming, blackpowder muzzle-loaders hanging fire or fouling etc. Basically the firer needs to spend a turn or more fixing the problem( roll a d10 or something).
GM fiat being what it is can be a real problem for some players-- a tighter system could be in place. The capacity for whatever gun a player is using should be available from some source( revolvers being typically six shots, a .45 Colt M1911 pistol has a seven round clip, a tommy gun has a 100rd drum mag etc). ROF will determine when you shoot dry. Reload times are then a factor-- most modern guns you can reload in a turn with a replacable magazine/stripper clip etc. The ROF for muzzle-loaders is whacked on that Companion table though-- three turns would be the minimum to reload, and ten is more realistic. Having a ready one to hand is another matter( this is why age-of-sail boarders would carry up to six pistols). Drawing and firing one a turn( or more with higher or special talent) seems alright. Speed-loading could be a talent too-- for firearms of any era.
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Post by markkrawec on May 31, 2008 20:58:01 GMT -5
Frankly, it's a wonder the firearms table isn't worse than it is - I know absolutely nothing about guns & have never fired a shot in my life. So if anybody has suggestions for making it more true to life, fire away.
d**n, I didn't just say that, did I?
As for the brawling specific wound, that doesn't actually require a second roll; all that says is that if the shooter gets an orange result or better to hit, the victim has to make a resolution check to resist a brawling specific wound. But maybe I'm overestimating the harm caused by a bullet, so just toss that out if it doesn't make any sense.
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Post by sambudak on May 31, 2008 21:50:00 GMT -5
Frankly, it's a wonder the firearms table isn't worse than it is - I know absolutely nothing about guns & have never fired a shot in my life. So if anybody has suggestions for making it more true to life, fire away. d**n, I didn't just say that, did I? As for the brawling specific wound, that doesn't actually require a second roll; all that says is that if the shooter gets an orange result or better to hit, the victim has to make a resolution check to resist a brawling specific wound. But maybe I'm overestimating the harm caused by a bullet, so just toss that out if it doesn't make any sense. Realism and Fantasy shouldn't be invited to the same party without the host being warned first. I really do like the dramatic complication idea for resolving the ammo issue. Upon rereading the rule-- often a good thing for me to do-- I can see the logic behind the orange results deal. I had a dunce cap on or something-- but it is weird having a weapon that gets two specific wound types at different success ranges. It's nice too that the Heroes can sorta go all John Wayne and get winged a few times. Or get "knocked out" by a graze and wind up under a pile of corpses. Whate'er-- it's more sensical now.
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Post by sambudak on Jun 1, 2008 10:16:42 GMT -5
Okay-- so the damage rules I'm fine with, and the way bullets ignore all but plate armor is alright to.
So the big issue is the ROF and how to do multi-targets. I'm for simplifying and just making it a -2 per shot after the first, and this is regardless of whether you shoot at the same target or move to another. My reasoning is recoil effects and the aiming at a new target are problems, but skilled shooters can compensate. The number of folks going for the gold and hosing down the baddies with their Tommy gun will be mitigated somewhat, but you can still reasonably try. That am I am assuming some wasted rounds in the higher ROFs( that is the guy might be sending a long burst of twenty rounds down range, but only so many hits are possible). I think folks will stick with "controlled" bursts to avoid the dreaded double-fail mentioned earlier in the thread.
We'll try it out in play.
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Post by markkrawec on Jun 1, 2008 18:50:14 GMT -5
I'll be eager to hear how it turns out.
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Post by sambudak on Jun 3, 2008 0:28:11 GMT -5
The ROF rules I'm considering are taking into account not really tracking the ammo usage of whatever weapon is being used. My thoughts on the double-failure thing is that it can be used to model various reasons why the firer has to stop for awhile( d10 turns is what I'm gonna use).
Basically it'll cover things like reloading, clearing a jam or a dud round, changing the barrel on an MG, or whatever, and I'll likely include a list of problems for a GM to toss out there for color when the time comes. I also think a nifty idea is for the GM to roll the d10 and let the player decide when its been long enough to seek another choice of weapon( eg Indy is having trouble getting the Schmeisser to shoot again after mowing down five Nazis-- so after two fruitless turns trying to get the thing working he tosses it down and draws his trusty revolver).
The double-failure will also come up more often with less skilled shooters-- which to my mind is fine. It'll model the less skilled running through ammo more quickly, poor maintenance leading to more jams, not knowing how to load a magazine properly or even picking out ones with good springs, shooting to much and over-heating and warping a MG barrel, and such. Basically a higher skill will ensure a higher ROF.
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